WIN LIVE INTERVIEW HEADSTART WITH KAREN DAVILA
BODY CAMERAS & CCTV | KIAN DELOS SANTOS | WAR ON DRUGS | CUSTOMS | TNVS
EIGHT ROCKWELL MAKATI CITY

(start of recording)

BODY CAMERAS AND CCTV

Q: Good morning Senator Gatchalian. Policemen will be required to wear body cameras during police operations, will this be effective? Will this change a thing?

SEN WIN: I think kaya. We can all see that CCTV is a game changer right now in terms of filing cases and also in terms of preventing crimes. The best part is, prices are dropping down and right now for as low as 8 thousand pesos, I think you can get a good quality CCTV and put it in your house. These devices will now enable policemen to prosecute and to file effective cases. This technology should be embraced here in our country and it's not limited now in houses and in establishments, pwede nang suotin in body cameras, I think we can also put it in public utility vehicles and these devices can now stream also just like the drones.

Q: Will you actually need a law to ensure that policemen have body cams before raiding in establishments?

SEN WIN: We need framework so it would not be abused. There's a lot of privacy here, there's a lot of issues about how to use it, how to access the tapes. Yesterday, Senator JV and I had a hearing on CCTVs and we found out that there is no law governing the access of the tapes.

Q: Really? So what do you mean by that?

SEN WIN: I remember clearly when I was a Mayor, nagkaroon ng holdap in one of the bank establishments and the only evidence that the police had was a CCTV footage but it took them so long to actually access that CCTV footage because sabi ng banks they have to go through the board, through their legal department, and to access that through a court proceeding also takes time. But in filing cases, time is of the essence and also the quality of the tapes is also very important. I think it took them almost 6 months or 8 months to get that footage but nag-file na sila ng case using whatever evidence they have but if they have access to those tapes, use it in the case and file it, mas magiging effective yung case.

Q: What do you think should be the rule? Kasi di ba yung kay Kian delos Santos to be fair, parang barangay CCTV kaya mabilis eh.

SEN WIN: Yes. Corporations, na-experience ko yesterday, from the testimonies of the resource persons, banks, multinational, madaming hierarchy eh, madaming levels so it takes them so long to get access to the tape.

Q: What would be the right one? Let's say a crime was committed, should the police have access right away within the hour?

SEN WIN: I think if it's obviously a crime, and then the police or person of authority asks for it, give them the tapes within 24 hour para magamit na kasi they have to study pa eh.

Q: Do they need a law for that?

SEN WIN: I think they need a law for that. A very strict law that will let government have access to that tape para kaagad they can use it to file a case.

Q: And they can edit it?

SEN WIN: And they can edit. That's another thing. The longer the tapes are with the source, they can actually manipulate the tapes eh, and there is a risk that tapes will be tampered.

Q: That's CCTV? But when it comes to body cams? You're talking about a lot of policemen, a lot of money.

SEN WIN: In our estimate, an effective body cam will cost around 15-20 thousand pesos.

Q: And you want it on just the team leader?

SEN WIN: The team leader lang or the raiding team at least. Ang estimate namin is 200-250 million more or less, the government could budget that or for the raiding teams to have that body cams. 18 states in the US have already laws that mandate their police or the raiding teams to have body cams. Multiple advanced countries like the UK, Germany also have these types of laws to prevent abuse to make sure that whatever the raiding teams are doing, they can see and use it as evidence. Protection din yan ng victims at ng police din, whenever these type of things happen, it's "he says", "she says" eh so we have to determine the truth.

Q: When it comes to CCTV in private establishment, how long this will take for this to become a law? You need a house version.

SEN WIN: I actually filed three bills. 1. CCTV on public places, schools and parks 2. Some form of a guideline in the use of CCTV and also the tapes 3. Body cams in the police officers. These three actually are centered on CCTVs, the use of CCTVs because right now we can see it's really a game-changer.

Q: Without CCTV, Kian would have been just a number.

SEN WIN: Marami eh. Accidents, a lot of crimes are prevented or prosecuted using CCTVs.

Q: So how long will this take? Do you have a timeline?

SEN WIN: Right now, there's a momentum in this technology I think the House and also the Senate are all in unison in terms of coming out with this strong CCTV law and the use, and the governance of CCTVs. I think within the year, we have something more concrete on the use of CCTVs.

KIAN DELOS SANTOS

Q: What does the hearing on Kian delos Santos shown you?

SEN WIN: Definitely, the policemen are lying, that's quite obvious. The case they filed, na nanlaban is a total lie.

Q: They also claim it's not Kian in the CCTV footage.

SEN WIN: A lot of corroborating stories eh, the CCTV footage is just one aspect of the entire story and there's also a lot of corroborating stories from the witnesses, obviously there were also playing on that area so they can corroborate the story. I think the path where Kian was brought to and also where they found the gun, it's in his left hand but right-handed sya so all of these are corroborating to the accurate picture. But I think the CCTV was the most compelling and most accurate.

Q: The bigger issue on all this is essentially the way the war on drugs is being conducted, what can you comment about that?

SEN WIN: When you deal with drug dealers, drug lords, criminals, you have to deal with them with a heavy hand, hindi pwede ang pakiusap eh. When I was a Mayor, we have this kind of problem, hindi pwedeng wag ka nang magbenta ng drugs ha? You have to really be decisive, calm and strong but we have to make sure also that the process is followed, rule of law is maintained and we use technologies like this to improve the processes because technology now is cheap and available and we can use that to strengthen the processes.

Q: But then you have this situation that Kian wasn't actually in the list, what can you make of that? You were once a Mayor, if the Caloocan police say that they researched on him on social media after the fact?

SEN WIN: Kian goes to school in Valenzuela and right after that incident we managed to communicate with the local community in Valenzuela and also the school, we found out that Kian was an average student, may problema but the usual high school problems.

Q: Kasi kung drugs yan, malalaman na yan ng school.

SEN WIN: Yes, malalaman na agad yan ng principal at ng school community and even in the community in Valenzuela where he hangs out, where he plays basketball, he is known as a nice kid so wala kaming na-detect at least in the Valenzuela side na he's a problematic kid and that's where this problem comes in. With impunity, we will now see a lot of these things, random people being picked-up, killed and that should be prosecuted.

WAR ON DRUGS

Q: You made a comment that you said as Mayor, you have to deal with drug lords, drug pushers with a heavy hand, what do you think of Chief Insp. Jovie Espenido now moving to Iloilo?

SEN WIN: I admire his courage. Definitely, he is a very courageous person but we are governed by laws and we have to make sure that these laws are supreme and being followed or else magiging magulo and I think his direction in fighting drugs, I support that, but he has to make sure that due process is also being followed. Hindi pwedeng random ang ginagawa it will really create a lot of problems.

Q: But then apparently, a lot of these mayors are in the narco list of Pres. Duterte, doesn't that least worry you?

SEN WIN: I think they have multiple intelligence that validate those list as far as I know this process, the intelligence community have validated this list but then again, they're in the list but ano ang ebidensya? What evidence can we use against them in court? I think that is the bottom line not just go and randomly pick up people, just like what happened to Kian.

BUREAU OF CUSTOMS

Q: Now moving on to another issue, you sit in the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee, I know the Customs hearing has reached I think 5th or 6th hearing and the people are asking essentially: first, will Faeldon be there?

SEN WIN: I think he should. He should be given a chance to defend himself, to tell the truth and also to respond to whatever accusation thrown at him. I think the committee will be very fair in this hearing, they have been fair in the past hearings, I think they will invite the resource persons.

Q: Coming in from the five hearings, does it seem to you that Faeldon, being newly appointed, knew what was going on or was he out of the loop because the corruption was so engrained?

SEN WIN: He's been there for one year and any chief executive officer should know from top to bottom, should know what's happening, that's their job, hindi mo pwedeng sabihin na those items are delegated to your subordinates. I don't buy the argument na hindi ko alam ang nangyayari and it's a huge organization, if that's the case, then you're an incompetent chief executive officer.

Q: So why do you think did they raid it?

SEN WIN: Actually, that happened also in Valenzuela and that's a question mark in our minds na bakit hindi PDEA at bakit BOC ang nag-raid? Definitely, in my last years as public servant, it is really PDEA who has the mandate to raid this type of illegal drugs especially this scale of illegal drugs. PDEA had the capability, has the know-how, has the technology, and the experience in this type of operation. So my first instinct is, bakit hindi PDEA and nandoon?

Q: But Atty. Noel was here and he said when they got a tip, they verified it and then acted and then called PDEA.

SEN WIN: Yeah but there is a lag eh. I don't buy the argument na nagmamadali because PDEA is a 24/7 operation. I don't think they have Saturday Sunday as off and I don't think they also take an off during an early time.

Q: Based on the hearing, do you think Faeldon first let it slip and then panic when he found out that it was drugs?

SEN WIN: There are so many inconsistencies in my analysis and that's why I think the committee is still hearing them in more detailed.

Q: What inconsistencies?

SEN WIN: Few days after, the BOC came back in Valenzuela to raid another warehouse in Valenzuela, at bakit ganun? Bakit hindi PDEA? First time, PDEA was not accessible, how come you went back again to conduct another raid on illegal drugs without PDEA again?

Q: Why do you think? You must have some instinctive analysis after all these hearings.

SEN WIN: I think I would rather wait for more details to come out that's why the committee is really exhausting all the details to come out and we will definitely come out with a committee report.

Q: Is the committee going soft on Pres. Duterte? Sen. Trillanes saying that Pres. Duterte in-laws is visiting Faeldon's office and committee chair Richard Gordon says you can't just drop names here, you need solid evidence.

SEN WIN: I think when you accuse the first family, the President; the bar of evidence is higher. You have to have clear proof and direct knowledge on this type of accusation. It's easy to accuse someone especially if it's the President because he is a public figure, I don't think the committee will be soft. The committee, especially the Chairman is just raising the bar in terms of evidence, proof so that if we accuse, we make sure that this information is clearly validated.

Q: Do you believe that Sen. Trillanes should come in with a witness?

SEN WIN: I think so. Senator Trillanes should come in with a witness, clear proof, and show it to the committee, and show it to the members.

Q: But then people might be asking why is it different when Sen. Lacson do it? Senator Lacson gave a privilege speech and just said I have sources that say Faeldon took a 100 million. Why can Senators do that?

SEN WIN: That's a privilege of a Senator.

Q: But we don't know the sources?

SEN WIN: I think in due time. My analysis in due time, Senator Lacson will definitely show and concretize his accusation. Senator Lacson has been known as a very knowledgeable person in terms of intelligence and I don't think he will be careless in terms of accusing someone. He had been a chief of police for a very long time, his network is very engrained and I think he has the evidence to prove what he is claiming.

Q: What do you make on Faeldon's reaction in saying you accuse me but your own son has been importing undervalued cement that actually has reached more than 4 billion?

SEN WIN: Everyone is asking bakit ngayon lang? After one year, bakit ngayon lang? If you want to be righteous and forward bakit ngayon lang after Senator Lacson named you and accused you of all these things? You could have brought this out as early as 12 months ago, that's the question right now in everyone's mind.

Q: Is Faeldon compelled to present his evidence against Senator Lacson's son in the next hearing?

SEN WIN: He looks like a very determined person. If his conviction is saying I'm right, I have evidence, then he should. There is a lot of places that he can go to in terms of showing his evidence, what he has, and if he will be given the opportunity to show this in the next hearing, why not? Show the evidence.

Q: The problem with Customs, this isn't new, we've already heard the hearing on garlic smuggling, rice smuggling, do you believe should it come to a point that Pres. Duterte should first head Customs?

SEN WIN: I think this is too micro for a President. There are a lot of competent people who can organize and manage the Customs, this is a management issue. I think also the use of technology, we should buy more X-rays, more technology to make sure that everything is integrated. One of the weaknesses of this organization is actually lot of human intervention because of the lack of use of technology so technology should really be used in this type of operation.

Q: But the cargo that went in, it passed through the green lane.

SEN WIN: That's also another question in my mind, how come this organization manage to bring 500 plus containers on green lane, bago lang sya I think it's only 3-4 months old, and after the drug shipment, nakapasok pa ang 9 more containers. This is actually one of the most glaring inconsistencies. How did this happen? This is 6.4 billion worth of illegal drugs hindi ito 6 million, they cannot let this go away. This will destroy a lot of lives.

Q: Is that particular company banned at this point?

SEN WIN: I think it should, the company should be banned and the shipment should be in the monitoring level and all the companies alike because I understand that other companies are also doing this type of operation. We have to make sure that the systems are in place and make sure that these types of corporations cannot be given the green lane or given the privilege using it.

Q: Is it time to privatized Customs, an expert says that a few weeks ago?

SEN WIN: I think that is a possibility, definitely when you privatize it, it will be a profit-oriented service, rates will increase, and when rates increase our competitiveness will also go down. But there is merit in that because when you get professionals to manage it, you pay them well then you get the result.

Q: Wala nang pakiusap yan sa mga public officials? Pakawalan mo to, ganyan.

SEN WIN: Yun naman ang ayaw natin.

Q: Yun naman ang problema ng commissioner.

SEN WIN: Yes but the commissioner can say yes or no. Pwede naman syang humindi eh and from what I hear from Commissioner Faeldon, kaya nya namang mag-hindi. It's really not a problem to say yes or no.

Q: What will it take to privatize Customs? Do you need a law? Do you need Congress?

SEN WIN: We need a law. Definitely, you need budget, this will be a private operation, we need to appropriate money for that so we have to make sure that that money is being well-used if it says for profit organization, we have to look at the rates, we have to look at the services and we have to look at how the leakages will be resolved kasi maraming leakages. I read something in the newspaper that from 2011-2015, 900 billion pesos worth of goods were smuggled here in our country, ang estimate ko double the amount yun eh, yun ngayon ang na-detect, so double the amount is 1.8 trillion, if you multiply that by 10%, that's close to 200 billion worth of taxes siphoned off. So sayang ang 200 billion, that can fund the free higher education for only 25 billion pesos.

Q: Is there a serious move in studying the privatization or there is no advocate?

SEN WIN: It's been an on-going talk and because of this issue, we need to look at it again, it's been done before through the SGS system, some countries do it and we have to look at their experiences kasi hindi na matatapos tong problema. If you talk to the operators, itong mga cargo operators, mga forwaders, they will tell you the problem corruption is very heavy. There is merit to looking at the privatizing the operations of Customs.

Q: Where do you see this hearing going? I know it's an aid of legislation, what will you legislate?

SEN WIN: First of all, we legislate the framework in privatizing, anong aspect of Customs ang ipa-privatize? This hearing actually generated a lot of information from the corruption issue all the way to the operations of Customs. I'm looking on how to fix the operations of Customs because when you fix it, you have to make sure it's also sustainable hindi lang ang one term lang kasi ganun ang nangyayari, one term lang hindi na i-su-sustain, we need to have institutional changes.

TNVS

Q: On another aspect, you also filed a bill actually which is big news to all the passengers today, you filed a bill on Uber to actually strengthen and define the legal personality of TNVS.

SEN WIN: This is a new technology and admittedly, we don't know the legal personality of TNCs, hindi natin alam kung anong animal siya, this is where the problem comes in. In my simple explanation, we have to declare this TNCs or TNVS as public utility entities just like any bus operator and taxi operator kasi sila ang kumukuha ng pasahero eh.

Q: Even if Uber does not own any car?

SEN WIN: Even Uber doesn't not own any car. The law can define that, their legal personality. What's important to me ang pasahero eh at kung may nangyari sa pasahero. They are not insured, their insurance are at the minimum so for example a simple driver gets into an accident and the passenger will now require compensation from the driver, hindi sa Uber eh, walang liability ang Uber, which I believe is wrong. Kung mahirap lang ang driver or he comes from a simple family, he has very limited capability on compensating the passenger. This is where the problem comes in at nangyayari yan, sa taxi, it's the corporations that compensate the passenger eh but dito, Uber or Grab doesn't have any liability over the passengers.

Q: This is very interesting and I think this will be a game-changer, even for the income of Uber ha?

SEN WIN: Let's put the passenger in front and foremost, I think that should be cleared and defined from the onset. Ano ba ang makukuha ng passenger if ever may mangyari sa kanya? What is the coverage of insurance that the passenger will be entitled to?

Q: Another issue, if you are a taxi operator, you have certain roles, you buy a fleet, you take out a bank loan, itong Uber they don't own any vehicle, when do you think you should say they're a fleet? They have no cars.

SEN WIN: My take on that is, Uber also created another opportunity which is entrepreneurship, maraming naging entrepreneurs, we should not dampen the spirit of entrepreneurship, maraming mga nag-negosyo eh and that's good for the economy but we have to regulate that. One of the ideas that floated during the hearing was really to put a number or a cap on how many cars you can buy as an individual.

Q: For example, don't get me wrong, can I buy 6 Innovas at this point?

SEN WIN: That will be discussed in the committee. But definitely, there will be regulation. Now actually, the ride sharing term is a misnomer na eh, hindi na ride sharing because of those type of entrepreneurs who buy cars and use it as Uber fleet, it's not ride sharing anymore, you're already using it as a public utility. All of these will be threshed out during the technical working group. What is important here is to put the passenger first, define the legal personality and put the necessary regulation to cover all of those aspects.

Q: Were you surprised essentially that Uber was able to pay close to half a billion?

SEN WIN: 190 million plus the other previous penalties. I was surprised because in my computation hindi ganun kalaki ang dapat nilang bayaran eh. The LTFRB also computed the legitimate cars in that 150,000 number of cars.

Q: Do you think it reached half a billion because they have to pay the drivers also?

SEN WIN: Yes. But to the government it was 190 million. I was surprised, frankly, but I think to move forward with this issue is you have to define the legal personality and my point of view here is, Uber became a point of life to a lot of our co-workers, in the Senate, a lot of people take that on a daily basis. This TNVS delivers a different type of service at the premium.

Q: My question is didn't it open your eyes if it earns this much, how much taxes are they paying? What is the model?

SEN WIN: We have to also define that in the law because they have to give their fair share to the government also because you're making money here in our country so we have to look at that also. Again, this is a new animal, it's an app for people to gather and we have to define that. In our point of view, they are public utility entity and you have to operate and pay the same taxes just like any other bus or taxi operators.

Q: But how would you do that because the difference would be Grab? Grab kasi has a fleet no?

SEN WIN: I think meron din silang ganito eh. May app at may fleet. It will evolve. Technology would evolve. Itong entrepreneurship aspect is really unforeseen, people buying 20-40 cars is really unforeseen. Again, for me, it's an opportunity for them and we should not dampen that entrepreneurship spirit.

Q: Thank you very much Senator.

(end of recording)