Transcript of interview of Senator Mar Roxas by ANC Dateline Philippines with Tony Velasquez, Pinky Webb and Ricky Carandang

On Lozada's testimony so far

Tony: From what I've been hearing, busog na busog na kayo sa mga sinabi ni Engr. Jun Lozada?

MAR: Well, mukhang lalong lumalim at lumawak ang larawan na pinapakita ngayon ni Engr. Jun Lozada, na yung kabulukan sa sistema ng procurment ng ating pamahalaan ay siyang inilahad ni Engr. Lozada, at palagay ko, iyan naman ang dapat na i-focus ng ating Senado, papaano natin aayusin ang procurement ng ating bansa, para ang pera natin ay hindi naman masayang. Inuutang natin ito, kinokolekta natin sa buwis ang pambayad nito, dapat namang mapunta ito sa tama na proyekto na priority natin.

Tony: There was a recollection that the attempt for him to just not pay attention to the bribe offer supposed to be given by Chairman Abalos, just to approve the deal. But then Sec. Neri's worry that this would create a stink in the media or mag-iingay sa media. What do you make of that?

MAR: Well, it has the ring of truth to it. First of all, this is direct testimony by Engr. Lozada. He himself was in that conversation, there are two other witnesses to that conversation where Sec. Neri was supposed to have said all of these things. So the burden now is on Sec. Neri.

There are two senators who were present, Engr. Lozada, his bosom friend, actually has said that this transpired. It's now up to Sec. Neri to refute or deny these allegations.

What's important here is that Sec. Neri has sought refuge from the Courts, and that is why we in the Senate are very very aggressively pursuing this case in the court, that the Supreme Court order Sec. Neri to come here and to say exactly what he knows, in the interest of the truth as well as public interest.

On NEDA's role and Neri's responsibility

Tony: (on Lozada's testimony on what Sec. Neri said about the President)

MAR: ...The assessment of Sec. Neri [on the President], while that's important from a political point-of-view, from a legal point-of-view, I'm more interested in finding out how did the NEDA-ICC, for example, change its stance? Originally, it was meant to have been "no loan, no government guarantee, private sector, and no government as the principal customer." And out of the blue, overnight, naging "loan, government project, may government guarantee, and government would be the principal customer." Papaano nangyari iyan?

Kasi itong $330 million ang siyang public money dito, and para sa akin, iyan ang pinakamahalagang aspeto nito. Yung assessment ni Sec. Neri tungkol kay Pangulong Arroyo, tatanungin din natin siya diyan pagdating niya dito sa Senado.

Tony: So ang sabi ninyo nga ay, parang nagbago ang patakaran ng NEDA after that conversation of the President with Sec. Neri?

MAR: That's right. You know, I was talking to former NEDA Secretary-Generals Monsod, Medalla and others--I think even Dante Canlas--who have all told me that the NEDA is not as inutile as the way Sec. Neri was portraying it to be. Na parang, "ah, wala kaming ginagawa, taga-add lang kami ng datos. All the data comes from the line agencies themselves at kami sa NEDA, parang clerical lang kami, we just put it together at wala kaming judgment." That is incorrect! That's not correct from the history of the previous secretaries of NEDA and that's also not correct from my understanding of what NEDA's job ought to be.

NEDA's job is to look at the big picture and to figure out, whether in fact, first, we need this project, second, whether this project is properly valued, and third, what is the best way to finance this project, whether through big loans or whether through public tax money. For Sec. Neri to simply say, "you know, wala kaming kasalanan dito, ni-add lang namin, pinasa-pasa lang namin ito," I think is incorrect. And it shows his hesitancy to actually take responsibility.

Ang message ko kay Sec. Neri, Romy, ikaw ang nakakaalam nito, you can set the nation free by telling what you know about this. Come, and do your job here.

On other personalities involved

Tony: I hope you did get to see the program during the Harapan Jun Lozada Expose Program on ABS CBN and other ABS CBN stations. Did you get the impression that Jun Lozada was again not directly admitting anything wrong or was probably omitting a lot of details?

MAR: Maybe to his hesitancy to bring in other names and other people, that's natural, that's human.

Tony: His suggestion is, kung iinterbyuhin daw si Lozada or other person implicated in this abduction ng media, eh dapat daw under oath na rin sila?

MAR: Ang kagandahan is kung nag-hesitate man siya sa ibang mga programs, dito under oath siya at nilahad niya ang lahat including that conversation, that dinner that he had with Secretary Neri.

Tony: When the Senate hearing resumes, who else is expected to be asked by the senators, what else do you hope to find out from Mr. Lozada himself?

MAR: It's really disappointing that the PNP officials are not here. They were invited. Siguro hindi pa nagtugma-tugma ang kanilang mga istorya at binubuo pa nila ang kanilang mga istorya. We've seen over past week how the PNP story has changed a couple of times. And the fact that they're not here indicates na ayaw talaga nila humarap, ayaw talaga nila mapilitan na magsabi ng katotohanan.

Ang importante dito is now with the revelation of Engineer Lozada is importante dito ngayon ay ano kaya doon sa procurement mismo, sa ZTE NBN mismo, ano pa kaya ang mga hindi pa nalalaman ng Senado. And through that questioning after the lunchbreak, I'm sure they will find it out.

Tony: Is that something that could be filled in by the Chinese personalities that the Senate's also interested in summoning, Fan Yang and Mr. Yu Yong?

MAR: Absolutely. They can be very instrumental although I'm not very hopeful about first, their appearance and second, their coming here and saying, No, we attempted to bribe. Nobody will actually do that. There is no current foreign practice in China unlike there is in the United States we will get anything too much from these ZTE officials.

What is clear here is that there's been very, very close relationship and associations with people in our government that are not directly related to the procurement like with chairman Abalos, etc. Bakit hindi yung mga in-charge ng procurement, bakit hindi yung mga supposed to be na mga sumusubaybay sa ating procurement ang mga kanilang kinakausap. Bakit kung sinu-sino pa ang kanilang kinakausap? That's Number 1.

Number 2, malinaw din dito na yung katatagan ng ating procurement process ay nakasalalay talaga ditto sa bidding. The reason nagkakaroon ng lobbying, nagkakaroon ng golf game, nagkakaroon ng kung anu-ano mang mga meeting is wala kasing bidding. Sa bidding kasi kahit hindi na kayo mag-usap, ito ang specifications, ito ang kailangan naming. Mag-submit kayo ng inyong bid, tapos. Hindi na kailangan itong mga golf, mga padri-padrino, itong mga tumutulak, itong mga naglalakad ng projects�

On importance of bidding process

Tony: In this case naman daw, there wasn't a need for a bidding because it was a Chinese government loan and it was in their prerogative to choose a Chinese supplier.

MAR: The point is we could've said, " Hindi, patakarin natin dito sa Pilipinas ay bidding. Maganda man yang project niyo. Maganda man yang loan niyo, hindi naman iyon I-a-avail kasi sa amin mas mahalaga ang bidding." The government of the Philippines represents our interest. The Chinese will do what's in their interest. We and our government officials should do what's in our interest which is to protect our money, to protect our integrity, to protect the standing of our nation.

Tony: Thank you. Pinky, do you have any more questions?

On role of Senators Lacson and Madrigal

Pinky: Senator, good afternoon, Sir. I wanted to go back to the question I wanted to follow up on Tony's question na sinabi niyo na hesitant po si Jun Lozada na mangdawit pa po ng ibang pangalan. I guess my question, sir, is this. Do you think it's fair na parang nadadawit pa po ang ibang mga pangalan dito sa ZTE controversy knowing that the testimony of Jun Lozada is really what he heard from Sec. Neri?

MAR: Well, first of all, he's under oath here, Pinky. Unlike in news programs or radio or in other areas. Here, he's actually under oath. So there is some seriousness. He really has to think about what he's saying here because he's saying it under oath.

Second, this is first-hand information, that he said Sec. Neri told him. Hindi niya kinukuwento kung anong nangyari outside of him. First-hand niyang nadinig ito mula kay Secretary Neri. So ang kinukwento niya ay yung kanyang first-hand na kaalaman.

And thirdly mayroong dalawang Senador na testigo sa dinner na iyon and they can say, totoo ba yun o hindi totoo yung sinasabi ni Engr. Lozada.

Pinky: Actually sir, that's right. We are speaking to Senate President Manny Villar a while a go and we didn't say senators there. Of course, Senator Ping Lacson and Jamby Madrigal are known to be opposition senators.

MAR: They maybe opposition senators, but that's not as important as Engineer Lozada. I mean, not all of these stories came from Senator Lacson or Senator Madrigal, they came from Engineer Lozada who at the very outset has said he really did not really want to come here precisely because he did not want to tell all of these stories and was only forced to come here when he felt his life or was his safety was threatened. So Engineer Lozada himself is the one telling all these stories.

Pinky: How important is it Senator Roxas for Senator Ping Lacson and Jamby Madrigal to corroborate at that earlier statement of Jun Lozada?

MAR: Well, there are only four people in that room. If three of them are saying the same thing, parang the fourth one is hard-pressed to deny it, no. If for example, if there are four people in that dinner and three of them said we had sweet sour pork and the fourth one said na hindi ako kumain ng sweet-sour pork, parang mahirapan naman siya.

Ang importante dito is the focus now is Secretary Neri. Nasasakanya ngayon yung pagpipigay ng kaginhawaan sa ating buong bansa. Ano ba talaga ang nangyari? Ano ba talaga ang sinabi niya? Wala namang hadlang sa kanyang pagsagot o pagtestigo dito either pasinungalingan niya yung sinabi ni Engr. Lozada o I-confirm niya, o kaya dadagan niya, bawasan niya, kung anuman. But its all on Secretary Neri.

Pinky: Actually Senator Roxas that's where I wanted to get to because I want to know how important the testimony of Secretary Neri would be in this whole investigation? Because yung sinasabi nga ni Jun Lozada is in reference to his conversation with Secretary Neri. And obviously this is posing a problem right now because of the pending case at the Supreme Court. So up until, siguro ma-resolve yun, saka lang siguro magpapakita si Secretary Neri sa Senado. Well unless, of course, he changes his mind.

MAR: That's correct. There is nothing that prevents you from coming here and telling his version of what happened. He is the one who sought refuge from the courts so he himself can reverse his own action, that's the first.

Second, that's the very reason why, for example, many many months ago Senator Aquino and I went to the Supreme Court and filed a motion for the release of the NEDA documents because those documents clearly show how the NEDA, then under the control and supervision of Secretary Neri changed its policy from no government contract, no guarantees, no loans, and private-sector-driven, how it went from that. Automatically nagging government project, government utang, government guarantee and government as the biggest customer.

Sa palagay ko, iyan ang buod ng isyu na ito. Ayaw itong sagutin ni Secretary Neri, claiming the Executive privilege that's why we went to the Supreme Court. Secretary Neri then again went to the Supreme Court relative to his person and coming here in the Senate, that's why we, the committee chairs acting as an institution responded last Friday by saying na we believe that Secretary Neri ought to come here.

On reversing NEDA policy

Ricky: Senator Roxas, good afternoon sir. Certainly its very important to have Romy Neri to answer that question but you have been Trade secretary for two administration, that of Mr. Estrada and that of President Arroyo. To your mind, in your experience, who would be able to reverse the policy of NEDA when the President initially said that it was a BOT, and she was on record saying that. And all of a sudden it becomes a loan. does the NEDA on its own have the power to do that?

MAR: Well NEDA as an agency does not, but there is body called the NEDA board that is made up that is chaired by the President and made up by all of the cabinet secretaries. And once there is a policy, it's really on the NEDA board chaired by the President that can reverse that policy. And that's why those records are very very important. The policy was very very clearly set forth in an October thereabouts meeting. And how come by March or February or March of 2007, this was now reverse.

So there must be some discussions, there must have been somebody who stood up there and said, it is for these reasons that Senator Aquino and I filed a motion for the release of the NEDA documents, because those documents will clearly show how the NEDA, then under the control and supervision of Secretary Neri, changed its policy from no-government contract, no guarantees, no loan and private sector-driven - how it went from that - automatically naging govenrment project, government utang, government guarantee and government as the biggest customer.

Sa palagay ko iyan ang pinakabuod nitong issue, ayaw itong sagutin ni Secretary Neri claiming executive privilege, and that's why we went to the Supreme Court. Secretary Neri then went to the Supreme Court relative to his person not coming here to the Senate, and that's why we the committee chairs, acting as the Senate institution, responded last Friday by saying Secretary Neri ought to come here.

Ricky: Being a former Trade Secretary, in your experience who would be able to reverse the NEDA policy from BOT to loan?

MAR: NEDA as an agency does not, but there's a body called the NEDA board that is chaired by the President and made up of all the Cabinet secretaries, and once there is a policy, really it's just the NEDA board chaired by the President that can reverse that policy. That's why those records are very important. The policy was very very clearly set forth in an October meeting, and how come by February or March of 2007, this was reversed?

There must have been a discussion, there must have been somebody who stood up there and said, "It is for these reasons that we now propose that we reverse ourselves, that something we held on to so assiduously in the past is wrong pala and let's change it for this one." To the detriment of the Philippine nation, because clearly this project was not something we needed, it was not our priority, it's now apparent that there is an overpricing here, all the stops were pulled out to be able to approve this contract.

Ricky: Would the NEDA really be able to make a decision to switch from a BOT project to government-loaned overnight?

MAR: I don't know if it was overnight, if there were notices that were sent out, but pretty much the NEDA board convenes whenever they're called, since it's chaired by the President. All Cabinet secretaries generally drop what they're doing to be able to attend such an important meeting.

Ricky: But would such a change be possible without Presidential approval?

MAR: It would be very difficult, but certainly, it would be in those NEDA records, and that's why, as I said, Senator Aquino and myself, many months ago, went to the Supreme Court, precisely asking for the Supreme Court to order the release of these documents which present NEDA Director Santos refuses to do so.