TRANSCRIPT OF PRESS BRIEFING OF SEN. TG GUINGONA Sept. 5, 2013

On the Senate Blue Ribbon hearing investigating the P10 billion PDAF scam

Q Sir, parang hindi believable and regular ang sinabi ni Mr. Salacup na hindi nila (inaudible) 'yung mga NGOs and yet hundreds of millions ang na (inaudible) sa pork barrel?

Talagang ganoon. They do that. Pero, we will see next week because sabi niya 'yung nakikipag-ugnayan daw mga staff niya sa baba. Yun Adriano (inaudible), Marian Tobia and Lolita Kamia. We will be calling them next hearing and let's just hear what they say.

Q Sir, mukha po bang nagpabaya yung implementing agencies?

It's very obvious na hanggang dokumento lang sila. So, sabi NGO ba? O, sige saan 'yung SEC registration mo? Submit. Nasaan 'yung Mayor's Permit mo dito? Submit. Saan 'yung BIR mo? Submit. Okay na ito. Gawa na tayo. Ganyan ang nangyari, hindi 'yung may kapasidad ba kayo? Tingnan nga natin 'yan opisina niyo. Kung for example, it is an agricultural project, how many agriculturists do you have in your office? Can we meet your agriculturists? Can we see the certificate of graduation of your agriculturist to really prove that you have the technical and managerial capability to undertake the project? Hanggang dokumento lang ang ginawa nila.

Q Sir, do you find it suspicious 'yung mga statements ni Mr. Javellana?

Of course, highly suspicious and of course, it's very clear from the demeanor of Mr. Javellana, nakita niyo naman na very nervous siya. He's trying to process siguro which he can remember, at this point we'll just call it which he can remember, and which he cannot remember. So, it was very clear. But anyway, we will see in the next hearing, with the documents, he cannot lie. I hope we can see more of the picture.

Q Kung yung COA report sa implementing agencies ay matibay?

Yes, matibay talaga. And 'yung nakakapagtaka lang 'yung mga memory ng mga iba, lalong lalo na si Mr. Javellana. Sa documents makikita natin next week.

Q Sir, Salacup , he admitted not knowing the COA circulars on how to go about spending PDAF if it is going to be channeled through NGOs and I suppose ganun din 'yung nangyari sa NABCOR wala 'yung sinasabi ni Sen. Chiz na bidding and negotiated procurements. Can you see the liability, either administratively or criminal liability on the part of the agencies?

We will look into that. That is a good point. Pero really, kaduda-duda na hindi nila alam sapagkat kung one-time lang, pwede na... like what happened in 2007... in 2006 NABCOR received only P2 million in PDAF funds then in 2007, suddenly they received P100 million and 10 NGOs, biglang nagdagsaan 'yung pera, biglang nagdagsaan 'yung NGOs. Kung ikaw prudent manager ka, magtataka ka, tingnan mo kung ano ba ang dapat gawin, ano guidelines dapat gawin. And this thing happened every year thereafter yet hindi nila alam. So, once, twice, maybe. Small amounts, maybe. Isolated PDAF transactions, maybe. But this one is a pattern and if you are a prudent manager you should have looked into it.

Q Sir, having said that, hindi ba sila liable, perhaps at least siguro sa negligence, criminally or administratively?

It would seem so, but ayoko naman magsalita ng patapos until the hearing is over. We will have that in our conclusion in our committee report.

Q Sir, sinasabi niyo mga senators sa releases...

Sa liquidation reports, oo.

Q Kasi may mga place ngayon na nagfo-forge mga signatures?

Well, that will have to be authenticated, yes, but for now I would not like to comment yet on whether it's enough to implicate them. This is a chain and you must remember the funds are from DBM, from implementing agency, to GOCC, to NGO. Na establish na natin na fake or kaduda-duda ang mga NGOs. Now, the funds were funneled to the NGOs and went somewhere else. So, ang kulang pa lang natin ay ang "somewhere else" na sinasabi nila kung pumunta man sa legislators kailangan na establish pa, kung na bumalik, hindi pumunta sa legislators.

On the need to invite senators implicated in the pork barrel scam to attend the Blue Ribbon Committee public hearing The story is still unfolding. In fact, si Mr. Habillana wants to refresh his memory by looking into that document of NABCOR . We will give him that next hearing, he should have his memory 100% restored.

On whether the documents to be presented next week will show if there are names of some senators involved in the alleged pork barrel scam

Yes, because they said so. Those are series of liquidation of releases: 15%, 30% , 15, 90 and 10. Walang release kung hindi liquidated. Tapos sabi nila, walang liquidation na hindi pirmado ng mga mambabatas. It re-enforces the fact that you knew about it because you're liquidating about it.

On his comment about the rally earlier outside the senate calling for the resignation of those senators implicated in the pork barrel scam

I don't want to comment about that. I think that should be addressed to

On whether he will call for a handwriting expert to address the issue of legislators forged signature

I don't think so. For example, if we go by the COA report saying that some senators have already validated their signatures and affirmed that it is their signatures.

Concerning the focus of the investigation

The problem with this hearing is who can say really whether this NGO is part of the Napoles or not. We are just piecing it together from the various newspaper reports. The one who can say, I suppose, would be either Janet Lim Napoles or Ben Luy, who participated in making all these NGOs.

On COA's possible liability

Itong Special Audit Report is important. I don't think so they should be liable for the other years. This is important because this brings about reforms in PDAF. In fact, this might bring about the abolition of PDAF.

Why COA has no liability

I presume may mga regular audit yung sa past years. Remember this is a special audit.

On whether the whistleblowers of Napoles will appear in next week's hearing

We are still coordinating with the DOJ. Wala pa silang sinasabi na pwede na. I suppose they're still putting things together. Pag nagbigay na sila ng schedule na pwede na, dun gagawin naming. Wala pa kaming formal request. Bakit pa kami mag-formal request kung sinasabi ay hindi pa pwede. 'Yung witness for example ay hindi pa nagsa-submit ng affidavits.

Q May formal request na po ba?

Wala pa, kasi bakit pa kami magfo-formal request kung hindi pa ready? Yung let's say for example hindi pa nagsusubmit ng affidavits and everything.

Q Yung 3 senators nabanggit sa NGOs ni Napoles, how about yung iba, naabswelto na ba sila kasi hindi kay Napoles?

Ipupursue din yun. Primary lang yung kay Napoles, pero it does not mean hindi natin papansinin yung iba.

Q Namention na kumikita ng 3% ang bawat implementing agency per project, do you think kumikita rin ng personal itong mga former head ng mga implementing agency particularly yung NABCOR?

Walang ebidensiya pa na lumalabas na ganun. Malamang kung lalabas yun, maganda yan itanong sa whistleblowers.

Q Sabi po ni Senator Santiago na posible pong mastermind yung legislator mismo.

Sinasabi ng NABCOR and ZREC heads, yes.

Q May mastermind po ba besides Napoles?

Base sa nakita ninyo, you can make the same conclusion that I get. Right now the story is still unfolding, and right now it all points to Janet Napoles.

Q Paano po ninyo susubaybayan yung pera ng PDAF kung bumalik yun sa mga legislators?

From DBM, to implementing agency, to GOCC, to NGO and it ends there.

Q Sabi ng ibang legislators responsibility ng implementing agencies ang mag imbestiga?

I guess then the testimony of the whistleblowers will be very vital to answering that question.

Q Pero yung pagsubaybay po sa pera? How do you intend to follow the money?

At some point in time, when the legal processes start, yung pag file ng kaso kung meron mang ifile, then pwede namang pumasok yung Anti-Money Laundering Council. Doon, masusundan talaga yung pera.

Q Yung focus for the next hearing, aside from the officials na pababalikin, sino pa yung mga witnesses na gusto nating Imbitahin?

We will still meet on that, and we will inform you shortly after we meet on that. We have to wait for the Department of Justice to say that they have everything already. Kailangan unahin muna natin yung mga whistleblowers.

Q How many whistleblowers will be called?

I do not know, we will have to check with the Department of Justice sa ngayon kung pwede na sila, so I do not know kung how many. There will be.

Q How many hearings are we expecting?

Mahirap sagutin yan, kasi tulad ngayon, dumating si Javellana na head ng NABCOR, dapat sana natapos na. Sabi niya, hindi niya maalala, he has to see the records. Wala naman daw siyang records dahil hindi na daw siya in-charge sa NABCOR, retired na daw siya, so ngayon, sabi ko, pakita mo na ngayon, next hearing, magtestify ka. Mahirap sagutin kung ilang hearing pa, kung hanggang kailan pa.

Q May balak po ba kayong gawing resource person ang DOJ at COA?

I do not see a need right now, sa tingin ko sapat na yung mga testimony ng whistleblowers when we call them.

Q Do you see something wrong with the practice of lawmakers directly recommending NGOs even though there are resolutions in place prescribing public bidding?

Yes. That is something that really fell through the cracks, that most implementing agencies apparently did not see, did not realize and did not know about. I said, when we make our final report, one of the recommendations will be a massive information campaign ng Department of Budget and Management and all the departments on the procurement law because that is one law that is very important yet wala masyadong nagbabasa, wala masyadong may alam.

Q The Senate minority came up with a statement saying that the burden of proving the legitimacy of NGOs really lies on the implementing agency.

I would not like to comment on that first. I'd like to finish the investigation that would be part of the conclusions that we will have when we finish our investigation.

On the involvement of Director Javellana, former NABCOR President

Nakita niyo si Javellana, kabado siya eh. Tapos nagiging selective yung memory. Kaya nga tinanong ko kung anong pinakain sayo kasi kung maaalala mo yung pagkaing pinakain sayo pero hindi mo maalala yung kaharap, eh, selective memory 'yan. Naalala niya na pumunta si Ben Luy sa opisina niya, may bitbit na dokumento pero hindi niya maalala yung legislator na nandun sa dokumento. Sabi ko, there are signs that your memory is very selective. we hope that in the next hearing, his selective memory will disappear and it will become 100 percent memory.

Q Sabi niyo there's a regular audit na nagaganap, how come na hindi nila nadetermine agad agad kung hindi pa nagkaron ng special auditing?

Siguro dapat ang tanungin niyo yung COA.

Q Would you address this question to the COA in the next hearing?

Pwede.

Q Ano ang liability ng mga nag previous audit kung saka-sakaling existing na pala yun tapos hindi sila nag-aksyon?

Hindi kita masasagot dyan. We will research on that.

Q Are we going to assess the rule of the ZREC and NABCOR in this investigation?

I'd like to wait until matapos natin yung testimony ni Javellana and Salacup next hearing. That's a very good and interesting question. The answer lies after the hearing.

Q Would you say that they acted more than just an implementing agency?

Of course, it's a conduit.

Q Sa first hearing saka kanina, the names po na nagco-come out- same names of Senators and Congressmen, may pangangailangan na po ba na mag-issue kayo ng open invitation sa kanila para mag-explain?

Hindi pa siguro. After the next three hearings muna until we see the whole story then we will make the necessary call.

Q Sir, follow up ko lang, itong hearing na ito hindi na limited sa mga NGOs ni Napoles?

Primarily to Napoles but the problem is who can say for sure or certain na 'ito kasama ni Napoles, ito hindi'. Walang may alam niyan kundi si Napoles or si Ben Luy. That's why we will stick to those identified in the special COA report.

Q Sir, sabi niyo hindi pa, so soon?

Yes, we will because the legislatures have already stated that they are willing to answer questions. I'm sure you know that because they stated it to you.

Q Sir, pag selective memory pa din ba si Javellana next hearing, possible po ba na ma-contempt?

Tingnan natin. Speculative 'yan. Hindi pa naman siya bumabalik, gusto niyo na agad i-contempt. Q Can they use the transcripts of your committee hearing to file a case against the legislators in the Ethics committee?

Why not?

Q Sir, sabi kasi ni Secretary De Lima, mag-f-file na daw ng Plunder case against some legislators. Pag nafile yun, itutuloy pa din po ba yung hearing? Dalawang filing 'yun. Yung isa sa Ombudsman, yung isa sa Sandigan Bayan. Yung sub judice rule falls under the Sandigan Bayan but not the Ombudsman. Pwede pa.