SENATOR WIN GATCHALIAN'S INTERVIEW ON ANC'S HEADSTART WITH KAREN DAVILA ON GUO HUA PING

Q: Alright, what do you make of Guo Hua Ping or Alice Guo's continued denial that one, she's a Chinese national, and now that she's a Chinese spy, she has not changed.

SEN. WIN: Well, the first one on being a Chinese national, that's part of her legal legal strategy, her legal defense to continue to say that she is a Filipino and she holds legitimate documents, but the evidence will speak for itself. The birth certificate is irregular, meaning the documents, the information that were given to produce that birth certificate, it's all fake, therefore the birth certificate is fake. Now on the topic of spies, of course, no spy will admit they are a spy. Definitely they will deny until, until the end. But this is the first time that I've seen concrete information, if I may say that, from an international news agency linking her to the Chinese government and linking her being a spy. In the beginning, this type of information came out, but this is the first time that a major news agency linked her to the Chinese government.

Q: And just for those who haven't seen the documentary, Al Jazeera actually interviewed a personality called She Zhijiang, right? I want to say it properly, and She Zhijiang is a, he admits to being a Chinese spy. He's been linked to scams, human trafficking, forced labor, and is now languishing in a Thai jail. And he refuses, actually, to be deported to China because he fears for his life. And it was She Zhijiang who named Alice Guo as somebody who called him. Why do you believe this guy should be trusted?

SEN. WIN: Well, definitely, Karen, we need to validate the information. This person, apparently, is a major investor in the Golden Triangle, where all the casinos in Myanmar, in Thailand, also in Laos, in Cambodia, operate, and a lot of these casinos are actually just fronts for scamming activities and human trafficking. In fact, human trafficking is rampant in that area. Now this this person, even though it's reported by a major news outlet, we need to validate that, and through an executive session, we need to ask our defense establishment, our intelligence establishments, whether this information is true or not, definitely spying, this type of activity is quite rampant in major countries, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is happening here in our country. But we need to make sure that we curtail their activities, because this is the first time, if this is information is true, this is the first time that a person, a spy, managed to win an election, managed to be voted legitimately, and nobody knows how far she can go after being a mayor.

Q: And She Zhijiang actually sent a message on the documentary to Guo Hua Ping or Alice Guo. And he quotes, China cannot be trusted. We both, may both. We both dedicated our lives to China's Ministry to state security.

SEN. WIN: Again, Karen, I don't think spies will admit their spies. I think they will probably deny that until the very end. In the case of She Zhijiang he was already in jail, and apparently he's fighting deportation. So I think part of his strategy is to reveal his secrets, including those in his computer. Apparently, there's a computer that contains all the dossier of the different personalities involved in spying. So this needs to be validated, and at the same time, we need to also engage our intelligence establishment, our defense establishment, to see how we can curtail this type of activities in our country. And are there more spies in our country? Are there more people like this penetrating our political system and slowly climbing up the ladder?

Q: Kasi, balikan, lang po natin, actually, it was the Senate. It was in the Senate that it was exposed that she was from Fujian province in China, right? It was mentioned in the Senate, but it's the first time that it was in the dossier that it revealed she was born in Fujian and they actually went to the residents of the neighboring towns, right? You know, the Al Jazeera reporters showed photos of Guo Hua Ping and they recognized her. So actually, that was the first time that you're right. There's some solid evidence that validates what was exposed in the Senate much earlier. And they even said she was born there, but left in 2002

SEN. WIN: Correct, correct. Well, if we look at the, she actually left earlier, because, based on the records that we gathered, she studied here in the Philippines in year 2000 so she went to grade one, grade two and grade three here in the Philippines, starting, start in year 2000 so more or less the time frame is the same, 2002 to 2000 but it's important now that we look at this from a broader perspective. Countries are now penetrating our political system to gain access to information, to gain access to intelligence and also to create influence within our country. And this is something that we need to take very seriously, because, from a macro point of view, our political system has been penetrated if, again, with the caveat, if this information is true. This is the first time that our political system has been penetrated by a personality linked to the Chinese government.

Q: So running for elections is one thing, but let's talk about the issue of migration. I mean, when does one become a Chinese spy? Because she left Fujian province at an earlier age. She studied in the Philippines, which would be the story of many, not just Filipino Chinese right now in the country, but all over the world, even Filipinos who migrate to other countries. If it is true that she worked for China's Ministry of State security. What would this be? Ito ba yung tinatawag, Senator na bata palang pinoprogram na or ang intensyon talaga ay lumipat lang ng bansa pagkatapos hahanapin, maghahanap sila when they're in the country. How does that work?

SEN. WIN: It can be both Karen, it can be from an early stage that she has been groomed and trained, and also at the same time she has been probably when, when they saw her and she's quite talented, and she can speak different languages fluently. She's quite charismatic. If you've seen her Tiktok she was talking to her constituents. She's very charismatic, for a person who entered politics for the first time, she's quite eloquent in that respect. So there's also the possibility that someone reached out to her and someone engaged her and at some point, because alright, because she's a very talented person and she has that ability to penetrate our political system as well. So it can be both. But the point of the matter here is this has to be taken very seriously and analyzed by the government. Again, there's a breach in our political system now, a personality has managed to win an election and probably has aspirations to go out and join the other branches of government.

Q: But now She Zhijiang mentioned the Chinese Ministry to state security. They refused to reply. Did not give an interview to Al Jazeera, but clearly they now will not admit that those two are Chinese spies. Obviously, as you said, you never admit to these things. What happens now? How do we move forward as a country with Alice Guo denying, denying, denying, denying that she is one? How do you prove it?

SEN. WIN: Well, this is where the intelligence network of the government will come in. And I'm very sure without telling the names, but I'm, I've talked to some intelligence experts, and they're, they know that these things are happening. They know that spies are being deployed by different countries. And in fact, if you, if you've been monitoring in other jurisdictions, in other countries have spies also spying, even allies. So in this particular case, because of our geopolitical issues, they know that these things are happening, but we need to engage our intelligence community and intelligence establishments to know the gravity of this issue, and if there is a breach in national security at the end, we have to make sure that national security is still intact and we can ward off this type of penetration from different states.

Q: Now the Senate hearing, and actually even the house is an aid of legislation, but knowing what you know now, what kind of law can be crafted from what you've seen and what was revealed with Alice Guo?

SEN. WIN: I think the first, my first instinct here, is to look at the budget of our intelligence establishments and make sure that they are well funded. They have the technology to detect this type of penetration, we need to make sure that the intelligence establishments are also supported with whatever they need to in order to capacitate themselves. This is a wake up call for us, whether, again, like a caveat here whether that information is true or not. This is a wake up call for all of us, especially for the government, to make sure that we are capable of detecting this type of breach in our political system.

Q: So that's one intelligent intelligence. But what made it easier, also for Alice Guo, is the fact that when she filed her certificate of candidacy to run for mayor in a very small town, as you've said before, the Comelec job is quite ministerial. They don't really investigate Filipino ka ba talaga or fake ba itong birth certificates. They just accept. What can be done to actually make it, you know, to make the process the word is it harder, but to have measures in the process to ensure that the ones running, for example, for example, dapat Filipino citizen ka, dapat hindi ka, convicted Di ba of any crime. Senator, tama, right? I mean pwede kang, nakasuhan, pero hindi ka convicted. Who's supposed to do that job?

SEN. WIN: We have to go back to the most basic document that created all of this controversy, and this is the birth certificate. During the last hearing in the Senate. We also found out that Tony Yang, the brother of Michael Yang also has a birth certificate. And if my memory serves me right, he got it when he was 34 years old already. So obviously it's it's also spurious, and we need to go back to that original sin, if so to speak, and fix that process altogether and also make it faster in terms of revoking spurious fake birth certificate, for example, right now, to cancel the birth certificate of Alice Guo takes a while because you have to file it in court, we have to file the document. And of course, the lawyers of the other side.

Q: Kay Tony Yang?

SEN. WIN: No, this is for Alice Guo.

Q: Pero kay Tony Yang ganun din?

SEN. WIN: Ganun din and we have to remember, in one small municipality in Davao del Sur, they issued 1500 late birth certificates, of which I think 50 plus already has been detected as fake. So in other words, this document is being abused and being used by criminal elements to navigate themselves, so enable them to move around our country freely.

Q: So what has been determined is the birth certificate fake, or is the birth certificate really issued by the Philippines? Was Guo Hua Ping's birth certificate really issued by the PSA, and it starts from corruption within or yung cert yung papel mismo fake.

SEN. WIN: No, in this particular case, Guo Hua Ping, Tony Yang and the 1500 birth certificates, they're all real birth certificates with fake information and at the very start of this is corruption, because they cannot, they cannot give fake information and receive legitimate birth certificates. There must be some collision that happened in that local government. In our system, it's a local government that generates the birth certificate. It starts with the local government. PSA is the repository of all of those birth certificates. But if you connive with, let's say, the local civil register and give fake information, you can get legitimate birth certificates with fake information, and it will make you Filipino instantly.

Q: So should that be changed under the because should we, should we now make, I mean, it will be harder if we want to decentralize, but we've seen it in Davao. You had former President Duterte, who legalized Pogo. Right? Pogo actually was legalized under his term, and the most birth certificates issued to Chinese nationals were from Davao, a town Davao del Sur. So ang tanong, should we change that under the law?

SEN. WIN: It's a balancing effort, Karen, because it was designed, the late birth certificate system was designed for our poor constituents, born in far flung areas, in the mountains, in the islands, so it will not be very difficult for them, because a lot of them come to Manila, and we experienced this in Valenzuela here. A lot of them come to Metro Manila to look for jobs. And either they lost their birth certificate or they don't have birth certificates, and they process their birth certificates here in Valenzuela, and the late birth certificate system made it easier for them. But of course, that convenience was abused, and we just need to make it tight enough for illegal people to make it very difficult for the illegals to get birth certificates, but convenient enough for constituents to get legitimate birth certificates.

Q: Because, ang lumalabas ngayon, even if you know, our local governments are quite autonomous, right? And this is under the law, you can't trust all local governments. That's what it's showing, right?

SEN. WIN: Well, because the local civil register, even though it's under the mayor, has certain autonomy. In fact, when I was a mayor, I hardly spoke to our local civil registrar, because it's ministerial in nature, when somebody goes there to register the death, that of a person, the marriage of a person, as long as you give information, they'll give you the certificate. But that, because that autonomy is also abused by people there, hindi naman lahat, but some people, and they found it profitable for them. It became a choice of a lot of these illegal personalities to tap into to become Filipinos.

Q: So moving forward now with Guo Hua Ping, she's now facing the quad committee. Are there still? Are you still going to call her to a Senate hearing?

SEN.WIN: We're supposed to be ending our hearing with the Tarlac Pogo hub and move into the Pampanga Pogo hub, the Porac Pogo hub. But with this latest information, we might drill down on that, and we might call the intelligence establishment, the defense establishment, to give us some clarification. For me, this is a cause of concern that someone who is allegedly a spy, allegedly has links to a foreign government, has managed to win an election to become a mayor and and who knows, he can be a congressman and a Senator later on with money and with a lot of charisma, and that is something that we need to recognize and make sure that it won't happen again.

Q: Now Senator JV Ejercito is saying that Guo Hua Ping can be a state witness if she tells all in another executive session. Now, first consider what this woman has done. Should we even entertain her being a state witness?

SEN. WIN: Well, Karen, we had an executive session with her, and I'm barred from telling the details, but I'll tell you my opinion, like precisely what you said, the first instinct that came to my mind, this is a pathological liar. She can lie to her constituents. She can lie to the Filipino people. We showed her proof and documents of her nationality, even the fingerprints. And she can tell you with a straight face that it's not her. She cannot be.

Q: This is a woman who did not cooperate with you at all, correct?

SEN. WIN: She cannot, instead she already revealed the strategy of her legal team that she will now plead that she is a victim. So going with that strategy, my personal take is we have to be very, very careful with the information that we get from her from the executive session, we have to be very careful that those information cannot be used to to relinquish her of her liabilities and to relinquish her of her culpability in in putting all of these Pogo hubs together. We have to be very careful that she's not using the Senate as her shield in order to escape her liabilities, but having said that, the senators agree to listen, but we will take it with a grain of salt.

Q: Because she did, she did name a specific individual who supposedly helped them get on the boat. Okay? Number one, pinaninindigan nya that they rode two boats, right? A small boat transferred to a big boat for days and landed somewhere in Malaysia. Do you believe first that they were on a boat? Do you believe that story?

SEN. WIN: Well, I still have my doubts, my initial reaction there, it's so easy just to ride a yacht transfer to a boat and end up in a different country without being detected by the Coast Guard, without being detected by the Bureau of Immigration, without being detected by the PNP, for that matter. And we're talking about a long boat, right? We're talking about three to four days of boat ride. So I still have a lot of doubts in that narrative, but we need to get we're still validating the information. A lot of government agencies are still doing their investigation, and hopefully we'll find something that will prove that someone aided her in her escape.

Q: Because she's probably, if she didn't take a boat and it was a chartered plane, she'd rather give the boat story instead of revealing the person from government who actually helped them ride the plane.

SEN. WIN: Correct, correct. But probably that's, of course, that's her, that's probably the deal that she struck with this one. But it's so convenient, if you just listen to the story, it's so convenient just to ride on riding a boat and disappear. And that's why we're still investigating that story, and different government agencies are still investigating that story.

Q: Guo Hua Ping is charged with several offenses, I think one of them, I think seven counts, if I remember correctly, of money laundering, among others. What do you think should happen to Guo Hua Ping. Do you believe she should be deported back to China?

SEN. WIN: No, she should face the charges here first, Karen. Based on the document and based on the pieces of evidence that we presented during the hearing, she's central to the formulation of this Pogo hub in Bamban, not only central to the formulation and the inception, but also in the operations, because we've managed to prove that even she was, even when she was still the mayor of Bamban, she was paying for the electricity bill knowing that there is operation in that Pogo hub. Naraid na, wala ng license, And there's no license. We prove that there's no license, but yet she's still paid for the electricity bills of that Pogo hub. So in other words, she is involved in of that Pogo hub.

Q: I was wondering. It seems that they fear more being deported to China, back to China, because in the Philippines, you've seen how VIPs are sometimes treated in our jails.

SEN. WIN: Well, there's also China has one of the strictest laws with gambling, and from what our research tells us that she can be put in jail in China for a very long time, and not only her, but also those people who are involved in gambling. They have, they enacted a recent law that will really punish people who are involved investment, even work. If you just work in gambling establishments, you can be put in jail. So they're trying to avoid that punishment by staying here in the Philippines. But equally, the human trafficking case in the Philippines equally as heavy on on those who violate it. So by staying here in the Philippines, she would also be in jail for a long time.

Q: Now you also want an investigation into the alleged failures of banks in flagging Pogo linked transactions. Any update on that Senator. But the problem I wanted to ask you is, Pogo was legal for a few years, right? Ang tanong dyan, if you're a bank, why would we flag it when Pogo was legal?

SEN. WIN: For normal depositors like us diba, when we deposit more than 500,000 you have to report where it came from. You have to report the source of your income. But in this case, in the case of Gua Hua Ping, almost P2 billion came to her account, between 2018 to 2023 that were not reported to AMLC. So this is a big question mark.

Q: Do you know the bank?

SEN. WIN: But there are several accounts, 30 plus accounts that involve Guo Hua Ping, but there's also the family Corporation, and there's also other corporations who are involved in this Pogo Hub in Bamban. We calculated almost 7 billion came into accounts that were not reported to AMLC. And the 7 billion is exactly the same amount that is the cost of that facility in Bamban. So in other words, the money that came into her account, went to the construction of that Pogo hub in Bamban.

Q: So will you be investigating that? Are you calling the banks? The banks can decline.

SEN. WIN: Yeah. I filed a resolution to investigate this angle. And again, we don't want to be a haven for money laundering, because people can get away with depositing illicit money and not being reported. We have to make sure that the anti money laundering law is being operationalized properly and the provisions of the law is being complied with all actors, whether banks government, but we have to make sure the compliance of that law.

Q: And what I wanted to say is actually banks can decline a customer, an incoming customer, if there are red flags with a customer's business model or the background or the track record, and that's correct?

SEN. WIN: Yeah, and it's also the responsibility to flag government. That's why there's a such a thing as suspicious transaction and coverd transaction reports. And these are the mechanisms to make sure that government is flagged, that money that are not traceable or not justifiable are being being deposited in our system, so we have mechanisms and and safeguards to make sure that we're not being used as a haven for money laundering. But again, the actor should make sure that they are complying those rules. If they don't comply, then these things will happen in our country.

Q: And now we'll be talking about the budget. Now Vice President Sara Duterte has said she will be attending the Senate hearing on the budget deliberations, but she will, this is her quote will no longer attend the House of Representatives because she says only two people decide there, Speaker Martin Romualdez and the appropriations committee chair Zaldy Co. So she accused them of meddling in the DepEd's classroom budget. Alright, my first question is this, the house is proposing to cut the vice president's budget by 65% from the proposed P2.037 billion in 2025 they want it down to P733 million. That's a 65% cut, cut by P1.3 billion. Do you agree with the cut.

SEN. WIN: I don't want to preempt the discussions in the Senate, but the way we deliberate and decide on a budget of a specific agency, is also different with the House of Representatives. And in my opinion, when the OVP budget comes to the Senate, and I think they've already transmitted it last week, we will look at the budget in relation to her being a vice president. What does it take to perform, to be a vice president and to perform her task, being a vice president. And we also admit that the Vice President will also have her own advocacies, for example, in education, in health and others. And we have seen this in the past, that the Vice President will have their own advocacies. And that's normal for political figures, like senators or like congressmen and mayors, that you will have your own advocacies, and you will focus on those advocacies. So from a broader perspective, we will look at that, and we will see whether she has the budget to perform her task as a vice president, and also to perform or to deliver her advocacy to her constituents.

Q: Now, is this the largest budget proposal of a vice president? I mean, let's not count 20 years back, because clearly, inflation has changed, right? Even the value of money has changed. But let's say in the last, last three terms, for example. I mean, we've seen the budget of Leni Robredo, and it was quite sparing. That was a sparse budget. And the Angat Buhay foundation her advocacies she raised with the private sector. So is this the largest you've seen of a budget proposal coming from the Vice President's office?

SEN. WIN: Based on my record. So I don't have the hard, hard numbers right now, but I think this is the largest from the last few years. But then again, the amount is not the issue here, but how you will spend the amount will be the most important facet that will be looking at different vice presidents will have different ways of running their offices, and we have to make sure that the amount allocated or appropriated to that office will be used wisely that's why for me the amount is not issue. But where the money and where the appropriations will go in relation to the functions and in relation to the advocacies.

Q: Okay, but is there a limitation? I mean, let's talk about this. One, we can just propose a budget, decide on an advocacy and use it. So just recently, the Commission on Audit in the hearing has said that the Office of the Vice President has already liquidated the P125 million of confidential funds that they used in a span of 11 days in 2022. However, the COA did say it is beyond the mandate given to a vice president for such a budget. They said, so they issued a notice of disallowance, right? Because they said the P73 million that the VP used was to fund surveillance operations in 132 areas. So yan ang tanong Senator, you propose a budget. This is my advocacy. My advocacy is intelligence. My advocacy is surveillance operations, pwede ba yun?

SEN. WIN: That's why Karen, the hearings and the briefings are very important. I've seen this in different agencies. Different agencies will propose many things. They'll propose things that they think it's in line with their mandate, and things that they think will be essential to the country and to their office.

Q: But I'm asking you right now, should the office of a VPs be spending for surveillance operations?

SEN. WIN: Karen, I have to look at that details. I haven't, honestly haven't looked at that detail. In fact, I just asked my staff to give me the deliberations in the house, and also the budget of the OVP. But definitely from a bigger perspective, not only for OVP, but with other other agencies, we have to look at the budget in a very detailed manner and cross reference that, or cross check that, to the mandate, to the functions as well as to the advocacies of the department.

Q: Now the Vice President's point of view is pinupulitika siya...Frankly, it seems that the budget of some agencies, but let's say, let's stick to the VP is quite discretionary, because Leni Robredo experienced it too, right when during her time and the house also didn't give her a good budget, right? So the truth of the matter is, budgeting for the Office of the Vice President is quite discretionary. Pana panahon lang yan depende kung sino ang nakaupo. And your Vice President Sara Duterte, alleging that right now, quite openly, how can that be changed?

SEN. WIN: Well, it's really part of our political system, Karen, that a vice president, aside from being the second highest position in the land. And aside from stepping in when the President is not capable of performing, it also derives its function and its advocacy or mandate from the President. For example, I'll give you a very clear example. During the time of Vice President Binay he was given the housing portfolio, housing. So this type of very specific mandate comes from the President, and that's how our system is designed. That's why to be honest, Karen, I filed a bill to change that system. I filed the bill to allow us to do that tandem voting, just like in the US, where your vote for the president is the vote for the president. Because, in my view, this penalty should be in line, correct? And you have to, you have to trust one another. And for many years already, we've seen that our Vice President and our President are not in line together. So it doesn't create this harmonious atmosphere in the country, because the two highest positions in the land are not in a harmonious relationship.

Q: But then that also works when you have a strong party system and you can't just break ties with your vice president or president, when things don't go well personally, such as unity right now, right? People voted for them as a tandem. Technically, that was an experiment where you vote for them as a tandem, and it turned out because the roots don't run deep. So now, what do you have if the vice president apologizes to the kingdom of Jesus Christ followers, I'm sorry for endorsing the president, but do you think that will work in the Philippines?

SEN. WIN: You're right. No, that that proposal that I made, no the tandem voting, is only one of the many reforms that we need to do in our political system. The political party system is a major reform that we have to do because it's easy to set up political parties here, and some of the political parties have very, not so clear advocacies or principles, and we need to strengthen that moving forward. We need to reform basically a lot of, we need to reform our structure in terms of our political system in order to strengthen our foundations.

Q: Now, here's my last question for you, we talk about reforms, and there's been a lot of discussion. This is the last on political dynasties, but in the Senate, it has been so glaring that you have family members with just 24 seats, you have a few families taking over those seats. I know they're your colleagues, they're your friends, but let's try and be objective here. You may face a Senate with three Tulfos, once again, two Villars. You have two Cayetanos, two Ejercitos and at one point, there could have been two Bnyas , except JoJo Binay lost. But at the end of the day, it is endless families that just because they have they're popular, they're powerful, they are taking the Senate seats. It's no new faces in the Senate. And you know what's worse is the same families in the Senate together. What is your take on that? Should that be reformed?

SEN. WIN: Well, Karen, it's hard for me to comment on my colleagues. They're colleagues, but my take on that is the system allows it, and it's our voters who make the choice, and our voters are conscious of the names, the first names and the last names, and during the election, they're conscious of who they are going to vote for. So my take on that is the system allows that, and that's why we need to study the structure in the system.

Q: One would say, Isn't it a rigged system? Right? Just because the system allows it, does that make it right? Does that make it ethical?

SEN. WIN: But we need to. We need to look at it from a bigger perspective, from the political structure to our government structure, like what you said, strengthening our political parties, because when political parties allow this type of phenomenon, definitely, if our political parties are stronger, they probably be the first filter and do not allow this type of phenomenon in our country. So we need to look at it from a bigger point of view, but right now, because our system allows it, and the voters are the ones empowered to choose. That phenomenon happens in our country. But definitely, I'm looking at reforms that should be implemented in our country, and we should really look at this from a very, very serious point of view.

Q: My last question, your three Gatchalians Yans right, you're in the Senate. You have a brother who's now mayor, and you have a brother who's now DSWD secretary. Have you discussed it among yourselves? Would any at any point? Can you see any of you running for the Senate at the same time.

SEN. WIN: No, Karen, we're not, as a family, and as we've talked about that, and we definitely do not subscribe to that, I think it's something that we as brothers, we don't subscribe to.

Q: Okay, all right. Why is that? Why don't you subscribe to it?

SEN. WIN: It's something that we feel that we're not attuned to, or we're not, to put it simply, our hearts are not into that, so but definitely at the local level, and I'll be, I'll be honest at the local level we have when we started off, we have me as mayor and Rex as the congressman, and we've again, we we left it to the people to decide. We gave them full information of who we are and what we want to do for the country, and we let them decide.